Ep 4: Revolutionizing Nonprofits' Partnerships with Government

In this episode, we sit down with Jesse Clarke, a seasoned government funding expert with over 20 years of experience transforming the relationship between charities, nonprofits, and government. From her early days as a federal civil servant to raising over $100 million in government grants for renowned organizations like Right To Play, Pathways to Education, and Save the Children, Jesse brings invaluable insights into the world of government relations and funding strategies.

As the founder of JN Clarke Consulting, a proudly feminist and LGBTQ+ owned firm based in Toronto, Jesse has helped over 40 nonprofit organizations across Canada unlock the power of government partnerships. She shares her journey, her vision for advancing equity and progressive values in the nonprofit sector, and actionable advice for organizations looking to navigate government systems effectively.

Transcript

00:00:00 Julia Pennella: Today on hashtag FEMPIRE Meet Jesse Clarke, a government funding expert, transforming how Canadian charities and not for profits engage with government. With over 20 years of experience, including a decade as a federal civil servant and leadership roles at Right to Play Pathways to Education and Save the Children, Jesse has secured over 100 million in government grants in 2021. She founded JN Clark Consulting, a feminist and LGBTQ plus owned firm that's supported over 40 organizations with government relations and grant writing. Jesse is based in Toronto and is also a proud mom to two teenage daughters, two cats and a poodle. Let's tune in to hear what Jesse has to say.

00:00:47 Unknown: hello, everybody. We're on another episode of Hashtag FEMPIRE and I have the lovely Jesse Clarke here, who's also building her own empire with JN Clark Consulting. And she's going to tell us everything from her experience in civil service to working in NGO to starting her own business. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thanks so much for coming out, Jesse. Thanks so much, Julia. I'm also super excited. I think let's dive right in then. Jesse, your journey began, as I mentioned, in the civil service over two decades ago. how did those early years of working in the bureaucracy and the machine of government shape your understanding of how government relations works and how that's applying to your work now? that's a great question and something I spent a lot of time a lot of time thinking about. I went into the civil service right after grad school. I was doing a master's degree in the U.K. And I actually went to the Canadian High Commission in the fall as part of several other hundred Canadians who were in the U.K. at the time to write the public service exams, which was kind of a fun experience. And then fast forward, I got offered a role at what was then called the Canadian International Development Agency, which really dates me now, I was pretty excited because I was in grad school and also really looking forward to starting my career. and as someone who's always going to be a politics nerd, I think I was pretty excited, to think, wow, I'm actually this close to the politicians and this close to all the decisions are being made. And this is super exciting. And it was and people were amazing. I had some incredible mentors throughout my career there that I'm really grateful for to this day and just people who really went out of their way to give you advice And I think it was it for me like the first couple of years especially, it was just like it's very intense bootcamp of What am I supposed to be doing? Who am I supposed to be talking to? There's so many rules, the structures that you spend time learning, But the way that we were running things, wow. I had never experienced anything like that in my life. And it was a pretty profound introduction. early in my career when I was with the human rights policy shop, I had the opportunity to go to Geneva as part of Canada's delegation to the Commission on Human Rights. I mean, wow, what a cool opportunity. I think when I first started to realize that for me, it was going to be probably pretty hard to stay in this career for a really long time, even though, you know, most people do that for life. And that happened when there was a there was a controversial vote on an issue at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights and Canada took a position that was very, coherent with and consistent with our foreign policy at the time. And I remember, though, it myself being pretty fresh out of university and, very idealistic thinking, this is this doesn't seem to align with Canada's human rights principles. And how am I supposed to just sit here and go along with this? I mean, obviously, I wasn't in voting position in any case, well, this is something I've learned very quickly, is that your role in democracy is to do what the ruling party tells you to do, like you're not supposed to kind of, you know, freelance and make up your own positions on things. And that's why you're a civil servant and that's how you build a new democracy. And that was a powerful kind of moment of leadership and guidance at the time, but also kind of crushing, I think I was like, but I'm someone who has my own opinions and I have a lot of opinions I want to unpack that a little bit because I feel like I've had a similar moment. I was a former political staffer where there were sometimes, you know, policies were being put forward. I was like, I'm like, give me a little, little ick Or, you know, it didn't sit right. But what was that like for you in that moment? for me it was a realization like, oh crap. Like you don't really have power. Despite doing all the grunt work behind the scenes, I always joke to people that Canada is run by like 20 something year olds Yeah. Yeah. They're just staffers. They're the policy analysts. And then just like, the veterans you've been around in, the civil service or government, make the final call. But we're doing the grunt work, getting the research. So I'm just curious, like, what was that realization like for you and did that impact where you are today because you are still in the government relations It was pretty you know, I think it was interesting when I came into the government. I was certainly excited. I also did have some kind of like a bit of ambivalence in the sense that I was like, well, I don't know what it's going to be like in this institution. And I think that moment that we were just talking about where someone was really reinforcing for me, this is your role. That was hard. Definitely. I was like, okay, well, this is all part of my learning and it's good to know. and I mean, certainly at this point in my career, I tend to look back on every single thing that ever happened is like user experience. Right? And I'm really grateful for it in one way or another. But at the time, it was kind of devastating and it was like, Oh, wow, this really is different than what I would have expected, or I'm not sure what I expected, but I think I just didn't really know what to expect, you know? But it definitely that unease and that kind of disconnect stayed with me throughout my entire career and I was busy. I had two babies while I was in civil service. So there were things to distract me. And I was very practical and responsible person and so I still am. So I was very, you know, this is a good job. You, your family, you know, very focused of that kind of thing. Right. But but over time, the disconnect got harder and harder for me to manage and began to feel kind of more personal in a way. And there was even a moment for me personally where. And this is for anyone who's been following politics for a while. So this goes back to like 2009 to 2010 Our minister at the time created a bit of a tempest in a teapot, by taking a memo that had been sent up by the civil service. And rather than signing it and approving it, which is what you'd normally expect, especially if something's gone through all of those levels, She put a little chapeau and I would not recommend that we fund this organization and signed it. And in so doing, it overturned all of the recommendations from all of the civil servants all the way up the chain. And it was regarding an organization that for me personally, I also had not at the time a direct connection to, but I had, a history, my family of people being involved with supporting it over the years. So I found that really, really hard because essentially the decision was to defund the organization after 35 years. So that was kind of a crystallizing moment for me.

00:07:09 Unknown: I tell this story because I don't want to imply that other people are not principled But for me, for my for myself, I realized I really have to believe in the work in order to be successful. So I say there I would just kind of been like spinning my wheels and, you know, going from job to job, not really caring and not really sure what I was doing. And that was never, never going to be enough for me. Like, I knew I needed to really believe that I was having an impact. And I think that was one of the things that you learn when you're the bureaucracy that can be kind of frustrating is that you might do something and you might do everything right. And then there's a change in policy, a change in government or a change in government on the other side, and a diplomatic situation. making a decision to leave was really scary. And not only to leave, but the Ottawa as well, because we ended up moving back to Toronto when our girls were two and five at this point. and I thought, okay, well, I just need to start looking around and see if I can figure something out and it's going to be okay. I really do believe that. I think it was probably one of the most stressful things I've ever done. Also, because when I made the decision to go, I mean, honestly, I probably could have been skipping down the halls because I was so happy about it. But I also was getting the response from everybody I spoke to at the Civil Service is like, What the heck? That's crazy. Why would you do that? It doesn't make any sense. Like that doesn't seem like a very good decision. And like universally, I don't think that anybody telling me this is a smart decision. So that was also really interesting. it's funny to look back at like hindsight's 2020 always. But again, I've spoken with a lot of recovering bureaucrats maybe. And that's the first thing people say I would you leave it's cushion job you get your pension 9 to 5 but golden handcuffs. That's something people say in Ottawa a lot. You know, you have in that job, you have golden handcuffs because it keeps you there even if you don't want to be because it's so good. And I remember I mean, that was the moment for me when I was talking to, again, a couple of the mentors there who I have to say show that one of whom is now Canada's ambassador to Ukraine and an amazing person is Helga Simcock. she was one of my mentors when I was early in my career there and gave me advice even in this situation. And I just it makes me so happy to see her how she's not now doing the work that she's doing. But anyway, and I said, look, I'm only 36. So that's how it was my left. I don't think I can just stay here for the pension. Right? This is kind of what people are telling you to do and why people seem to be you know, and I'm not saying that's why we're there. Obviously, we are for variety of reasons, but that in and of itself is not going to be enough to keep me going much longer and to really feel connected to my work and really satisfied that I was making a difference. I just felt like I'm not going to progress on my career. obviously the system there is also very different if you're trying to apply for a new job, it's a huge competition. You have to often write an exam. You go through a big interview process and it can take a long time as well. So that was also I think I was getting really impatient I'm not really moving up the way that I would want to be. And I think maybe that's a great segway into leaving. You had all this international develop experience on the on the government side. So was it easy for you to slip into working in an NGO in the international development space I would love to hear your story on that. Yeah. well, the good news was it was it was relatively easy for me to get a job. So that was great. I wasn't sure how that was going to go. And I came down to Toronto for a few interviews at the time and ended up working for a small organization that sadly doesn't exist anymore. but they took a chance on me and I was really grateful for that. And they were a small shop like I think we were only 15 people in the office in Toronto. So that was pretty exciting because it was like, okay, this is, what I'm waiting for. I can actually talk to the CEO and go into his office. And if I don't agree with what is being done, like I can speak up about it and I can feel really connected to the work that I'm doing, at the same time, of course, there's, there's the other side of that which is like I remember having a conversation with a colleague, you know, which is the tight budget and the expectations are very high, and understanding in terms of work life balance and family. You know, a lot of the people I work with didn't have kids at the time or were even necessarily married and I had two little kids. So I remember one time I was there, I was like, well, you know, we have to go on this this trip and you're going to be gone for three and a half weeks. And I was just like, I didn't know what to do with that. It was like such a long time. But I ended up being away on my daughter's third birthday as well, which was really difficult. But because I was so new to the space, I didn't really know that I could say no or that I could ask for a shorter trip. Now I know that that definitely would be the case, but I mean, this is also generational. I feel like that might be an impact of being a Gen X at the time and Gen X who had spent nine years in the Civil Service. I didn't really feel like I could question those kinds of decisions very much, at least not very openly. So I did go on that trip. I mean, it was incredible to be to do the work and either but it was a really long time, too, if my kids were very young at the time. So, that was kind of one of the one of the trade offs, obviously, to the salary as well. Not really surprising coming into that role. And that was a bit of a you know, wow, going from Ottawa where we owned a house and renting in Toronto right now and I'm making a lot less money and did we really do the right thing but you know what like within about I think I was in that organization for just over a year and then I landed another job that ended up being really great job with, Save the Children Canada and they saw my background and they said, actually, this might be a really good pick because they're looking for somebody to run their proposal, government proposals. and I loved working there. Really dynamic, really exciting. Definitely a lot of work.

00:12:47 Unknown: What was that like for you, starting off your own business? I mean, that was definitely also terrifying. I will say, though, that by that point I think I had already taken that gamble once in terms of making a big career change, and it really paid off for me. I found that when I was in non-profits, my career just kind of exploded. I ended up getting more and more responsibility and quickly made up for the pay that I lost and then some. So this move is interesting because like because I was still working for an organization that I really loved and I thought they were doing great work. I thought it was a good work culture, but there were a lot of other reasons in the background and family reasons, primarily why it just wasn't going to be a good fit for me to stay there. And I mean, to be a bit more specific. I would say like mean a couple of things. One is that we were just dealing with a lot of mental health challenges in my family. And I don't want to violate anybody's privacy too much. But let's just say what other members of my family to the point where I wasn't really gonna be able to travel and travel, had been a big part of the job that I was doing at the time, where I was probably traveling six, eight weeks a year, easily to most of Africa, probably like 80% of the time which was incredible. I mean, like what I, I still miss that, although I don't miss the 14 hour Toronto that is. I would recommend that very much. but I knew that I need to make a change cause I want to be able to travel. And I knew that I'd always loved giving advice to other people in the nonprofit sector about how to think like government, how to work with government. It seemed like I realized over time that I actually have this insider knowledge and in a very different way than I thought I did. But it was really a lot more about understanding what motivates people and how they work and how they think. What are the levers for decision making? What's going to make it make a difference in terms of doing this right thing at the right time? When should you be, you know, using, someone higher level in your organization to have a high level meeting when you just keep it at the working level. And these are all things that I had a lot of insight into from my time in government, and then that I was able to apply to my time working for nonprofits. And I realized that actually this is something I'm really passionate about, is, you know, I really think people need to understand better how government works and not be as scared of it, I think, and know that they can actually really influence it. And so when I was starting the business, I started off initially with maybe I'll just look for a job now. I didn't really I really thought that hard. Certainly business. I was like, Well, We have all these financial responsibilities. but I thought, okay, well in the meantime, I'm going to do what everybody does which is change my LinkedIn to say I'm consulting now as the kind of cover of the interim space. And when I did that, I started getting people that came to me and saying, Oh, you're consulting, what will you do X, Y, Z thing for us or what you do? You'll work with us as well. And I had friends who were running a consulting firm in the country and they they pulled me in as a subcontractor A few things and it concerns snowballing and I was like, I'm really busy. This is this is super exciting. I think I could actually do this. You know, I have enough money coming in and it seems like I'm able to make this work. And then of course, like a little bit later that fall, it was a bit slower and I was like, Oh my gosh, what have I done? You know, time and time to do all of the job ads. Maybe I need to, you know, give up on this idea. But instead I actually started doing some business coaching and the boy that was be learning curve as well, you know, talk about a culture shift, right. Becoming entrepreneur is really different. You're you're working 24 seven. I've also run my own business. You're working 24 seven. But I feel like doing the grind for yourself is so much more rewarding because it's for yourself or your growth or what your values and passion is. So I totally resonate with that. how does that knowledge of policy and decision making work in government and how do you apply that and share that? Because, you know, communication's a skill. How do you communicate that to organizations who are like, I've never done this before. I've never wrote a grant. I don't know how to talk to an MP or bureaucrat. Like, how do you manage your day to day? On advising people. Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's probably like I would say the two main things. One is to sit down with an organization and say, okay, so what are you doing right now? Have you a bit of an audit for them almost where we evaluate and say, you know, where are your current relationships with government? Do you have any let's look at maybe you have some connections you don't even know about. Let's let's go through and take a look at what are your assets and what are you doing that might be of interest to government? And where could that be a good fit in terms of potential funding or potential advocacy? So that's kind of first step Where are they at right now? and what could they be doing? that's kind of like the biggest thing I do and then give them a strategy based on, really concrete, practical steps, both kind of higher level strategy, but really tactical advice as well about, these are the people you should prioritize dealing with. This is the time when, this sort is being made internally around budget allocations. And, you want to make sure that you have someone in the right place at the right time. if you have connections, this is when you might want to leverage them. Certainly something that's on the mind of a lot of people in the sector these days is what about change in government? You know, here's how to develop an opposition strategy and think about how you can prepare for that as well. So a lot of kind of getting taking a look at organizations. Right. And seeing if they can do things a little bit more systematically and then they can have a really solid plan for getting in front of government funders and getting in front of the right people at the right time. Then, you know, opportunities will start coming to them because I think a lot of people think, well, I just need to sit there and wait for the RFP to be announced and then I'm going to scramble it with, you know, hundreds of other organizations apply five or something. And I mean, that's definitely one route and it's great when those opportunities work out. But I would say that, you know, mostly if you're finding something at the RFP stage, it's often too late. You haven't had time to kind of do your work, find partners, and also you haven't really had enough time to build a solid reputation with government as well. I focus a lot on those things. Organizations like how do you make sure that you're pre-position well, you both have a really solid reputation, and that your whole organization understands this is a priority and that you all need to be supportive of these goals around around working with government. So, whether it's your comms people or, your fund raisers, everybody should have this in the back of their mind as well. Yeah. And I think to that point, it's all about strategy. And I really love how you bring that personalized approach. Like let's look at this from a 10,000, you know, view. Where are the connections? What are we doing? Are we starting from scratch? So I think that's super important. And again, having that knowledge is is amazing because people don't know like for us word nerds and exactly, you know, we're trying to research them when the budget cycle is out. But it's so weird that you forget that the average person does not care. And I'm always like, not at all. I know it's funny. And I've got I've got friends in the civil service, provincially, federally. So we geek out about it. But then like, you know, sometimes dinner table conversations get derailed. But I think with, the point of strategy too, and we've talked about this before, but you also work with like a concept of strategic empathy. could you explain that a little bit on how this approach helps organizations achieve your goals? And, you know, what does that mean for government stakeholders and what is strategic empathy? Absolutely. Yeah. this is a concept that I've developed actually over the last few years. I started to be thinking about it a bit in kind of my loss in house roles in nonprofits when I was trying to communicate to people why I do things the way I do. But now that I have my own business, I really put a lot more thought into why I think it's a really, really effective approach to working with government. Probably one of the most effective approaches. So what do I mean when I say strategic empathy? in some ways it's very basic. the people that we're working with in government. They're actually people as well. And, our politicians. Right. And I think there's that sounds really basic, but I think there's a real tendency to be like, I don't understand how these people think or what they do or where they're coming from, or there's sometimes a bit about, oh, is it okay? Or is it difficult? Or is sometimes voters really intimidated to talk to the politician or the political staffer? Um, so the core of my approach is to say, well, you need to get past that and think about the fact that you're everybody's trying to do the job. Everybody wants to do a good job and everyone wants to be seen to be doing a good job. They want to get recognition. They want to feel connected to the work that they do and really feel that they're having an impact and that they believe in something. and civil servants often, you know, the vast majority go in there because they really believe they want to they can help Canadians and help others. And then, of course, they get into the environment and find that needs more complicated than they expected and maybe they're a bit further removed from the work than they expected. And so for me then, you know, that's your role as a partner, is to understand that I understand where they're coming from and see how you can really help them connect to the work they're doing, to the work that you're doing, and to help them really feel that actually what they're doing does make an impact through the work you're doing and help them see that however tangibly So that's a big part of it. That's one of the key principles is helping people on the other end feel that connection to the work. another key principle of my strategic empathy approach is basically you want to try and make life easy for people that you're working with. And so what does that mean? one of the things that we used to joke about a lot when I was in the civil service for things that they considered to be career limiting moves, quote unquote, sealed, with the idea being that if you were attracting negative attention from more senior officials in the department, that was a good example of something you wanted to try and avoid any cost. And so one of the things that I advise people on accounts for in terms of working with government is, as much as you can, you want to hold yourself to a high standard in terms of especially financial compliance and management. You don't want to be the source of headaches. You won't be the source of, scandals, heaven forbid, or like end up in the paper, probably as most civil servants. Worst nightmare. the last thing you want is to have something you're doing end up in the news for the wrong reasons. and I'm not saying that everything you do is going to go perfectly, and certainly not when you're working in some very difficult environments like, you know, either in Canada or overseas where there's, a whole host of complex issues that are impacting whether or not you can achieve your goals. But I think it's very important to be thoughtful. What I would say is thoughtfully and professionally transparent, you want to be open if you're having difficulties, but you also want to come to the table with a solution at the same time. And you don't necessarily want to come to them and say, oh, no, this thing happened. and what do you think about this? invite their input, invite their engagement, invite their support. Because what you really want to do is create champions and allies for your organization within the civil service who really believe in the work you're doing and are going to try and, you know, do their best to really champion your work as much as they can and it within their capacity and give you good advice also. Right, because you're often really relying on them for advice. It really is a two way street like I have found now that I am engaging with more bureaucrats, not just the right I specified file, but it really is a two way street because they're hearing from industry, they're sharing what the realities are, and hopefully that does influence the policies they're going to put forward or at. We also relay that to the decision makers and our lovely politicians. I think on that note, you know, with your experience of facilitating policy change in the civil service, in the international development space, what are some of maybe common challenges that you have found for nonprofits that face challenges on the policy influence side? And how would you help them navigate those hurdles? that's a great question. And that's probably of all of the issues that I work on, what are the ones that most passionate about? Because I think that there is this tendency among especially charities in Canada, but I think just the sector more broadly, even those that aren't registered charities, I think still have this this sense of terror when they think about advocacy. I'm from an era of the civil service where I mean, this is a big joke, but this actually happened at the time. we were told we're allowed to use the word advocacy in the internal memos. So one of my colleagues came up with 35 synonyms for advocacy that you can use. Oh, my gosh. it's so funny because I, find myself by default using the word engagement a lot or like policy engagement as, like this like byword, which is like a bit of a like softer version of advocacy. But really that's what I'm talking about. and I heard this so many times like, but what if we do this or we're not going to be like, breaking, our CRA rules as a charity. Are we going to get in trouble or are we going to end up getting negative attention? And there's often a lot of confusion and, To my mind, it's really not that complicated. The guidance, the guidelines, you know. Yes, there are some nuances. Yes, of course, there are some times when things might happen. But the guidelines are very clear. And if you explain to people and they understand them, they can feel really confident, empowered, that they can actually, probably in most cases, could do a lot more than they think they can do around advocacy And for me, advocacy is something you want to be doing for its own sake, because often that's when you can have a really profound impact on communities that you're serving. If you're changing government direction around a policy that, impacts people who who really need additional help or didn't need a leg up, that can be really impactful. But I also see for me, policy is part of a funding strategy as well, in the sense that if you can engage with government on lots of different levels and they can see that you have expertize, then you can understand where they're coming from and weigh in on on topics that are important to them. It builds your overall reputation and credibility as a partner as well. I think that's great. And I think a lot of times I've found like now that I'm also in the GR space, people get in their heads like how is this being received? And and they lose that confidence. And I really think it's, like you said, empowering, I think is the key word, making them feel competent, not be anxious about violating this. Can I talk to this person? And I think it's a huge stress. So great you offer this service to walk people through it because it's intimidating. It really is. And, I know when I started working as a staffer, I'm like, I see these people on TV and now I'm briefing them. And so I can't even imagine someone who's totally, you know, northern Ontario who maybe never been to Ottawa or been to their local legislator. And being put in that position is very scary.

00:27:17 Julia Pennella: And then opening yourself up to criticism was something I didn't think about and something I've experienced in my own advocacy where I could be pitching policy ideas about how to make housing affordable. And the people you're meeting with are saying This won't work for X, Y and Z. And it kind of stumps me because they're so quick to kind of shoot the idea down. And it makes me question, well, you know, I've done the research on this. I've spoken to two local stakeholders about these issues. You're just assuming these things won't work without actually maybe seeing the full game plan. So how do you mitigate that experience with your own clients? You know, have they ever come back to you and said, oh, my God, that was a terrible meeting. They hated everything I said. How do you usually help them navigate that?

00:28:05 Unknown: so I a couple of things I mean, it does happen. And one of the things I think I probably encourage people to do is, go in and do your homework really well beforehand. So you hopefully get around to a lot of surprises. Now, it depends who you're talking to. Certainly with politicians, I would say. there could be surprises. People could say, I think whatever they want, right. They have to have a bit more freedom in that regard and authority for good and for bad. Right. So I think that can sometimes be really helpful if they connect to your organization and they say, well, obviously they fund it and they make it happen. I mean, that's amazing, right. But but yeah, I mean, they can be a bit more, they're free to speak their mind. Right. But I would say that what I haven't heard people do is make sure that you've done enough homework going into a meeting, that you're not really going to be surprised that you have, to talk through a lot of different scenarios of what if they say this, what if they say that? How are you going to respond? And so, yeah, I would say, you want to prepare as well as you can. it's great that you prep them like it's, it's the coaching, it's the homework. I think people sometimes take that for granted. Like you have to do your homework. the approach that I take is a bit different than traditional public affairs, which GR firm, you know, which there's many amazing ones in Canada, but they often will lobby or they'll go with people and that's not the way that we work, But I find for a lot of non-profits and charities, it's better for them to go themselves and not to go with professional lobbyists. And I think, for good or for bad, I mean, I think obviously a lot of our view is that kind of work I think is important. But I think it's always seen well by government as a charity, has a high price lobbyist coming in. And I also think, too, that way also smaller organizations that can't necessarily afford that kind of help, can access training or coaching from our team that they can then take and use within their organization and growth strategies and really feel like they can go and have these conversations and see how it goes for them you know? Yeah. And that's a really great segway into kind of my next point. And one of the really neat things I like about your consulting firm is the aspect of inclusivity and diversity, and you're a huge advocate for you mentioned you work on the gender equality file, But I would love to hear your expertize in LGBTQ plus issues, feminist issues. How do you incorporate that inclusivity and diversity into your strategies for government influence and kind of policy change, whether it's on an individual level or through organizations or consulting with? Yeah, so I love I love that question. So that because it's something that, it's really interesting in the government relations space because you spend a lot of time counseling organizations to avoid being partizan, right? So, you know, there's always that big distinction. it's okay to have a strong position on something, but what you can't do is be explicitly connected to it to one party or another. Right. and that's a very big part of that secret guidance that, charities to follow as well that I'm always remind people of. that being said, it doesn't mean you won't have values and perspectives that you're sharing that are very, very you know, and inevitably, of course, there are political connections, ramifications, right? going into this space, even though, because I do government relations and I don't have a partizan position on issues, I don't have a partizan affiliation. but I have to define the firm right from the beginning as being a progressive feminist firm. I am queer. And so an LGBTQ, I owned firm as well. And that's really important to me in terms of the kinds of causes that we support. And is also important then for sure in terms of looking for values aligned with your clients. So that's kind of one of the first things I would say is I like to be really explicit upfront about our values so that we have the right people who want to work with us and people who share those values. Right. So that right away at the beginning kind of sets us up for success. it's interesting because in some ways these days in international development secretary, in terms of corporation sector, it's not that hard to be a feminist because we have a feminist feminist in charge of the policy. So in that sense, like the F word per se, you know, it's something that's been embraced a lot right by the sector, at least right now. But that doesn't necessarily mean, that translates into how people work or how they deliver their programs. And, something else that I've also wrestled with the a lot is like, we know that the government is an institution that's bound. All institutions are bound to have a colonial history, and they're profoundly colonial institutions. And certainly particularly the way that we deliver diplomacy and foreign aid as well, has very strong echoes and roots within the colonial structures. So how do you take a position that's kind of it's colonial to work within that? I mean, it's it's a little bit messy, I'm also very pragmatic. Right. And I never say to people, we're going to change that system from end to end or, try and work on the side of it. No, I'm very much about working within it in terms of, working to achieve your organization's goals, values and priorities within that system. and it's not to say that you can't have those very strong principles, values and a very strong focus and advocacy. But I think that's really important for being successful as organization. But it's a lot about the how, right. How do you do that? how do you express those positions? how do you engage in conversations with people? How do you mobilize Canadians and supporters around issues that you're concerned about? And there's ways of doing that that I think are respectful and thoughtful and can still be very impactful. So I mean, I think it's something I think about a lot because I kind of struggle with the fact of like, obviously when you're working with government, there's times when you have to compromise and when you work with anybody, that's the case. Right. and I find it interesting because at the time like early 2010, 2013, 14, there was there was a big controversy in the development sector over whether people should take money from mining companies. And that was a big political hot potato at the time. There was a pilot project that was announced because, of course, Canada has a huge mining sector. It's a huge industry here. And it has a vast footprint globally as well. Right. And it's kind of an obvious connection. And I remember, people will be like, well, we want to make sure that our values are aligned with those companies. it's really fascinating, just like on the mining thing and it kind of pops up questions of like, who's pushing social change? Is it society or is it government? Because, to your point, like we can look back to history, same sex marriage, it really wasn't on board with it now. I mean, there's still serious issues, but like it's more normalized. one of the things you mentioned I'll come back to was I want to tell you a story about same sex marriage. but we were talking about the funding levels. I mean, that's something I always come back to people and I'm like, so I think it's really hard to understand from inside government the scale and scope of government money. Right. And they have competing priorities and, many different metrics that we're working to achieve. But, if you think about how much money is being spent relative to how much money most organizations are looking for, that ratio is like completely bananas. I mean, it's so far removed, right? And so I often tell people, government can't say that they don't have the money. Right. And I think and of course, it's not to say they're spend it on you, but I think it's just good for people to keep in mind that possibility, you know, if you can hold the right levers, there's money that can be unlocked. that's not the issue. it's never going to be the issue. It's just priorities. And, of course, sometimes, and I'm not suggesting that the money just flows freely, like not at all. It's kind of the opposite of that. my point is, that it's possible And there's always the possibility of getting a lot some of those resources, if you can find the right strategy to do that. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. Like, it's it's there, but it's like, how is this allocated? like how can you justify, contributing to this organization over the other? And I know that a very big challenge for civil servants and then also by defacto politicians when they're announcing these things. But it's like how do we juggle affordability crisis? Are we focusing on housing or focusing on food, or are we focusing on, people's day to day payments and commute like transportation, pocketbook issues like you were just mentioning. I mean, the thing is, those are the ones that most people actually relate to. Right. And so that's what ends up I mean, that's why the budget, they can see the day to day tangible impact on their household budget. Right. And otherwise, it's often it's very hard to kind of compute that they have those billions of dollars. How does that relate to me? You know, how do those two things fit together? absolutely. And I was like one of the things my minister that I worked for was always like, when you're in comms talk like people talk. people don't understand these figures. They just think it's a lot of money maybe being wasted to that cause or whatever. Like, why isn't this coming directly to me? And I think being able to translate that is a huge skill and I think government sometimes lacks that. And I think that's where the power of consulting firms and organizations really can help uplift and show the benefits or maybe sometimes the challenges or maybe not the good side of it for sure. I was just going to say also, like, I part of the approach that I really preach to people and I coach people in is what we want to try and do. Like the secret sauce always is finding alignment. So where is there an alignment between what you're what you're trying to achieve as organization and what the governor wants to achieve? And how can you make those two things work together in a way that is a win win and benefits both your organization and the government and when you can make that happen? one story that I like to share is when I was at Right to play back in, 2020. And this is just kind of a fun story because the way that it worked out was one of the things that was happening was Canada was trying to get a seat on the U.N. Security Council, and in order to do that at the U.N., there's a lot of African countries that have votes, and we're trying to court those votes. And so as it happened, Right to Play also had a board member who was with NBA in Africa. And so we organized this event in Senegal where the Prime Minister and Masai Ujiri of the Raptors came, and they had a basketball game on the beach in Senegal. And I mean, it led to this incredible program that's now underway, is helping, you know, thousands of girls in Senegal get a better education and access through sports and leadership skills and all kinds of things. And it was I mean, that's how it worked out. But it was but it all came together. It was like this sort of magic scenario of win win win and it doesn't always happen like that. Often it's a lot more boring. It's a lot more like, patient, persistent engagement. Right. But when it does happen, I like that example. It's is kind of fun. But, realistically that there can be a lot more a lot smaller scale as well. Right. And, you know, politics is local. Like me also. I'm always like, how that connection with your local MP and they want to hear their constituents like that's always going to be something that's true that no matter what political stripe. absolutely that's huge. Like no matter your political stripe like build that relationship they're there for the people, they're elected by the people. I also think it's a little interesting, too, both in America and Canada when, maybe sometimes a politician speaking out against their party, but they're speaking up for their constituents. like one case that comes to mind is McDonald's about the carbon pricing. And he got a lot of backlash down the line with the Liberals. But, you know, I felt for him, he's speaking for his constituents. He's like, I get these phone calls this is why they put me here. I think totally especially like, East Coast, they have that personal connection. Ontario, Toronto, it's a little bit harder just they have so many constituents manage I work for the MP for Spadina Fort York and we had a huge it was downtown Toronto. Like you can't keep up with everybody but you know, everyone. We came in, I and my MP took the time to hear from them because it really is important. and I'm glad you share that, wisdom with your clients as well, because it's grassroots I never know when they can be an ally for you in another situation. Right. It's not like a Chevy Volt organization. And, you know, and if they maybe they aren't aware of there's people in the riding who really connect with this issue. Right. How could they know? I think that's the other thing, too, is like when you start thinking about the quid pro quo and what organizations can bring to the table, sometimes it's just your knowledge of communities and your understanding of what people prioritize that it's harder to get a civil servant working in Ottawa, you know, it's harder to make those kinds of community connections and really understand how the daily realities people. And that's going to be a really important perspective that charities across to bring as well. And yeah, to that point perspective because I think, we try to emulate that in government where we have different representatives across the country. But our civil service doesn't always reflect, like someone could from downtown Toronto never maybe step foot is writing policies for someone out in BC someone out in Alberta I just recently came back from a little West Coast trip meeting with Saskatchewan and Manitoba and the government. And they were so against certain policies because it's like it's kneecapping our economy, but it's benefiting Ontario's benefit. BC So I think that's also where I'd love to see that improvement. Like I feel like the civil service, maybe you can correct me. Like I feel like it was diverse in the sense, you know, it was decent amount of women bipoc community. But I feel like the regionality is really, really lacking because it's like the, the linguistic barrier. You kind of have to be bilingual to work in the civil service. Well, someone who is in northern Manitoba maybe didn't have access to French learning classes and not stifles their ability to work in the civil service and their perspective. So I'm curious what was your experience? definitely because there's a lot of barriers to entry. So like and I would say like, the government pools like, apply and not hear back until a year later that you made the first round. Yes. They're round rounds like. And meantime, most people can't afford to just sort of sit and wait for that to happen. I think there's so many barriers. It's interesting because I think it's gotten better, but I would not say that like the diversity, when I was in Ottawa and then came to work in Toronto, I mean, it's a very different world in terms of diversity, inclusivity and a lot of cultures here I mean, not everywhere, but I think, it's significantly better. and I think there's a lot they can do, definitely. I mean, there's certainly a tendency for people who live in Ottawa anyway to go on to become public servants. And I, I mean, it'd be interesting to sort of look and see how many public servants are actually born in or from that area, went to school in that area because I think there is a big overlap and that's definitely a real bubble. Right. And, it really skews your perspective on the whole country if you think that everybody's actually interested in politics and hears about this stuff, because actually most of the don't really care, you know, so. Absolutely. my Minister was from Newfoundland and, we were talking about supply chain issues and stuff and one of the staff was on our call and they're like, oh, you can't always deal with supply issues because we have to boat Are things in if there's a bad storm, you just might not have bread in the grocery store for that week. But it was so foreign to me. my local convenience store and pick up a loaf of bread or milk if I need it. And I'm like, I try to be aware of things, but there's so many nuances that are left out of policy because those voices, those perspectives aren't brought to the table, which I'm definitely seeing now as I'm exploring my horizons outside of government. And I think, obviously, there's barriers for anyone in terms of achieving different kinds of employment and different kinds of education. And, there's a certain threshold in order to get into the public service, you have to meet. Right. I think it's more diverse and there's definitely and I have to say too that as an LGBTQ person, it's come a long way from when I was there in terms of inclusivity, like, holy cow. And so definitely things are progressing, there's a lot of hoops to jump through, whether it's linguistic people saying, you know, or, the kind of education background or whatever the case may be. it can be challenging. And I think there's a struggle for the civil service to reflect the diversity as and I think to your point as well, I think, to reflect the reality of people who live outside of the kind of main regions and outside of the more populated areas, maybe goes back to that empathy point again, you have to really be able to imagine yourself in the shoes of somebody who has a totally different experience from you so that you can make effective policy as well. Love that. Yeah, great, great. But I totally agree with you. Like there's progress, but good first steps, but definitely more like we need to see more.

00:44:03 Unknown: as we're kind of wrapping up the conversation here, which has been so exhilarating and it's really great to just like talk shop with someone. one thing I miss about politics is Just like really shoot the shit about what's going on and the realities of things and being like frustrated sometimes about why this isn't working. But you know, in your view, you've had like such a broad, exciting career, the travel a little bit meeting with people but and meaningful I would say to like I feel like just hearing from it it seems very meaningful being able to go internationally but also locally and share your experiences. It's great. on that note, What do you think the future of nonprofit and government collaboration looks like and should organizations prepare to adapt to this future landscape? And I guess what I'm coming at this is we're seeing this rise of A.I. We're seeing how social media is used to push certain politics and ideologies. What do you think of that? How do you think people are going to navigate this? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, a couple of things. More generally, I think that there's some good work going on. And I would shout out Imagine Canada nonprofit network because those are organizations that I think are doing amazing work of trying to really increase the recognition of legitimacy for the charitable and non-profit sector with government. And show we're a big contributor there in the economy and that they're here to say at the same time like it's a very difficult environment for that sector as well. These days, volunteer numbers have never been lower. I think there's a lot of pressure on giving as well or, affordability crisis and just demographic changes that are happening in Canada, like they're really impacting the sector. I think people have different understanding of the roles of charities and civil society in general. So I think those are all kind of background issues that are very much out there. I think in terms of some of the technological  advancements, I think that's always a big challenge for policymakers is that, you know, policy doesn't move as quickly as technology. Right. And so it's often a question of playing catch up. And the question is whether it's too little too late. Whereas I think that's something that is great about charities, non-profits and similar to the private sector, they have the potential to be a lot more responsive and to change a lot more quickly more nimble and agile. Right. And so I think maybe the challenge then is for government to figure out how to give organizations the space to be to really respond to community priorities and needs and to support them in doing that and also to learn from them as well and say, well, what can we do? because you can really get into debates depending on how deeply you want to go about well, should should charities actually be delivering services or should we just be getting government to do it more efficiently? Or who should actually be delivering these services? But in my mind, one of the goals that I think that the charity nonprofit sector places government that is always going to be really critical is that I think because, they have a perspective and they have an access to communities that is much more granular and niche and work with really small groups of people who are not in the majority, are not going to be reflected in a lot of, kind of common communications messaging and really get out those voices and bring them forward to government in a way that I think is kind of the unique role, and I think they can also play a role in terms of just contributing to, more positive public dialog. And I think there's a tendency for people to want to be engaged these days because of all of the people get overwhelmed by the multiple crises that are going on. And yes, some of the problems seem so untenable. And so I think that's also a role that charities and nonprofits have, is that, you can get engaged at a much smaller scale, but you can still be having a really meaningful impact. and I think that's where people get intimidated is they think I'm so small, what does my voice mean I love that you're pushing them to do that. I'm also trying to do that on my own personal levels and stuff. But it's important because I truly believe everyone's voice matters and everybody has a story to tell. And why not share that and make some positive change with it? Right. 100%. 100%. But this was an absolutely lovely conversation. Jesse, I want to say thank you so much. Any closing thoughts that you wanted to share? Maybe something we missed? it's nice to talk shop with someone. I think the only thing I want to mention because I haven't had a chance to talk about this as much. But it's interesting the trajectory of being a civil servant and working for, a global facing department and being LGBTI at the time that I was doing it was it was an interesting challenge in different ways. They didn't really know what to do with the fact that, you know, in Canada we could get married. But if you tried to, go overseas and take and get a spousal visa for a partner, try and take your kids overseas and integrate into a school system or culture. They didn't know what to do with us. I remember having this conversation when I was finding a posting. Early in my career in a Caribbean country and saying, I'm really excited about this and I think it's a great opportunity. But do you have any advice for me on this specific issue and talk about deer in the headlights? They haven't thought about it. They haven't even consider the fact that being in a same sex relationship and living in a country where, there were definitely some homophobia at the time that could be a problem or challenge. And that would be something that would give me pause in terms of making that kind of career move. And things have come a long way. I have a few friends one of whom managed to get one of the very first diplomatic same sex spousal visas for the US because even at this time, of course Canada has same sex marriage. The US didn't from any of the five seven year gap I think. And so that was an interesting issue in this case it's people who are really just trying to do their job and build their careers and you're going overseas if you're in that kind of line of work is a big part of that. But sometimes that means you're not able to do that with your family. Right. And that's an interesting issue. I think that the sector Canada's also still coming to terms with it doesn't really fully understand or appreciate anything, but it certainly moves on a lot further. maybe just to close on, one of the highlights of my early career days was actually getting to meet this wonderful couple who themselves had been part of a public service challenge to get funding for people to bring their same sex partners on posting. Because at the time that they applied for posting. This was way back all before same sex marriage. This was like when they were trying to get to be allowed to have access to partners, pensions or access to some of the same benefits. And I remember that there was a case where someone who had applied to go on posting and they said, Well, yeah, we'll find your pets to travel. But they didn't have a category for finding a spouse when there was no legal recognition for marriage. Right. It was just like kind of amazing when you think about it. But basically the whole action around that and then they also were involved in, this whole push that long predated same sex marriage around. Well, people, de facto are really are kind of like they've been married. I mean, they've been together for all this time. Even if you have the legal stance, they should have access to their partners, pensions as well. And that was a big issue, too. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. this goes back to like our, bubble. Yeah, yeah. It's like Canada is okay with it, but yeah, like not I mean it's a very specific but It's fascinating. It's like, okay, well, there's two or three countries in Africa that allow people to bring their spouses, but it definitely does limit limitations on you inevitably. Right. and the person that I was talking about who I met, he was a director general's been very successful in his career, but at the same time, there is this issue that was in the background. It was also obviously, more important to him probably than anything else Well, it's your identity. Your work is one thing, but again, whoever you love, it's no one's that this but exactly the thank you for sharing that that's a really amazing but sad story. on that note. Thank you so much, Jesse, for all this lovely insight. If you want to follow Jessie, please look her up on LinkedIn. Anywhere else that you're on Twitter or X? I am on yeah, I'm on X, I'm not super active, but I'm on X and LinkedIn is definitely the place where I'm most active. And we have a newsletter you can subscribe to and the information on LinkedIn as well. If you're interested in getting our kind of sometimes weekly or sometimes biweekly depending on how much content we have, but a lot of insights, one on Canada's nonprofit sector and government. Well, that's fantastic. And keeping people updated because education and knowledge is power. But if you need any GR consulting needs, please reach out to Jesse Clarke from JN Clarke Consulting. And thank you so much for tuning in.