Ep 7: The Risk of Telling the Truth - When Activism Meets the Nonprofit Industrial Complex (Part 1)

In this thought-provoking episode of #FEMPIRE, we dive deep into the current political climate, examining the rapid shifts happening in both Canada and the U.S. and how they're affecting the nonprofit and fundraising sectors. Our guest, Esther Saehyun Lee, shares her candid perspective that, for her, fundraising isn’t just about money—it needs to be rooted in justice and equity.

Esther dives into the real risks and fears many face when speaking out against these systems, especially in industries where power and wealth are concentrated. She challenges the idea that those advocating for justice are fearless, reminding us that true courage lies in acting despite fear. Esther also reflects on a pivotal moment in her career when she decided to call out systemic racism in a nonprofit organization, offering a powerful example of how speaking your truth can be liberating.

We explore the intersection of activism and fundraising, discussing the tension between serving marginalized communities and navigating institutions that often uphold the very systems of oppression that harm them. Esther’s story is a testament to the resilience and courage it takes to challenge the status quo and push for real change.

Tune in for a raw, insightful, and ultimately hopeful exploration of finding courage, demanding accountability, and reimagining the nonprofit sector's role in the fight for a more equitable world.

Transcript

00:00:00 Julia Pennella: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Hashtag FEMPIRE. Today's guest is someone who's shaking things up in the non-profit world, and she does it all with a banjo in one hand and a cat probably supervising from nearby. I'm so excited to welcome Esther Saehyun Lee, to Hashtag Fempire. Esther is the principal and founder of Elevate Philanthropy Consulting. She's a powerhouse fundraiser, storyteller, and advocate who doesn't just talk about change, but is actually building it and doing it with an inclusive lens. Esther has helped tons of non-for-profits boost their revenue, build funding structures with the justice-first approach, and does it in ways that are ethical, equitable, and rooted in belonging. She's also on the Community Centric Fundraising Global Council and the Asian Fundraisers in Canada Collective. In this episode, we're digging into what

00:00:56 Julia Pennella: really means to challenge the status quo. From speaking up when you're facing injustice at work, to questioning whether traditional institutions are even the right place to make change. Especially for women and for women of color. The system isn't always built with us in mind. So what happens when we stop trying to fit into a system and start building something new? Let's get into it.

00:01:28 Julia Pennella: Hello, everybody, on this rainy Monday morning,

00:01:32 Unknown: but we're gonna be cheered up with an amazing conversation. With Esther Saehyun Lee, who runs her own consulting firm. We're going to be talking about fundraising, the nonprofit sector, and just the chaos that's going on in the world right now. Esther, thank you so much for being on Hashtag Fempire. How are you doing today? I'm good. Yeah, what an intro and I'm really excited to chat about the sector, about the world. I think there's a lot to talk about.

00:02:00 Julia Pennella: Absolutely, and I've been really looking forward to this chat, so let's jump right in. There's a lot happening politically right now, both in Canada and the United States, from tariffs to elections. It feels like things are shifting really fast. But I'd love to hear your take. How are you feeling about the current political climate? And what's really standing out for you during this time? How do you think all of this is influencing the work being done in the fundraising and non-for-profit space?

00:02:29 Unknown: You know, I was reflecting on this last week because I was actually watching an interview with, Ezra Klein on MSNBC. he was promoting his book and he was saying. The Department of Government Efficiency, what is the vision of efficiency? And he's like, if you're trying to be efficient at deporting children and separating families. That's one form of efficiency. If you're actually trying to address the housing crisis for people living in the United States, that's a different level of efficiency. What are we talking about? And he's like, I think we deserve to have a government that has a humane vision. And basically his criticism was this Department of Government efficiency by concept, he has no complaints about it. But it has to be under a humane vision and that was a big caveat. For me it kind of started making me think about the work of non-profit and this idea of fundraising. And accruing wealth or mobilizing resources. For me, fundraising has to be centered in equity and justice to be of any value to this world. And I feel like right now in this political climate Like for me, I don't see fundraising as anything except justice work. So for anyone that is trying to separate it or can think they can separate it or just kind of go on about. Business as usual when there is immense political strife and division and harm being done to communities. For me, it's really mind boggling. I think right now in our sector, especially with the climate as it is, if I don't see people in the nonprofit sector commenting about it or taking a stance on it or clarifying their values on why they do this work. It's made me immensely skeptical about, okay, what are we doing here? Like, what is this sector for? Like, are we actually trying to build a world and community where we're taking care of each other or. Are we just accruing wealth because we make a livelihood from it? and I say that with a sincere curiosity because I don't think we've actually had the time to ask, but I think in this moment we're locating ourselves. If I could really sum it up, we're locating ourselves and I think we'll have clarity from it when the dust settles but it isn't a good moment to find yourself in and it is a scary one. Absolutely, and a lot of big themes and powerful points there. And I have a question to that. Do you think, people being vocal about these pieces and again having that humanity piece tied into fundraising and advocacy. Do you think there's a fear of speaking out on certain issues just because a lot of topics are so polarized these days? Like, you can't even talk about the weather now sometimes depending on who you're chatting with because, global warming is a political issue. but when we're talking about fundraising and, serving maybe underrepresented marginalized groups, we're even seeing the U.S. attacking DEI and companies out of these initiatives. Do you think there's a fear of if I speak out on these things I won't get opportunities I won't get those types of funding streams that I need and that's maybe holding back whether it's intentional or not. There's always fear and actually my good friend Liz LeClaire just published a sub stack on this where she was posing the question, can you be an activist and a fundraiser at once? Because basically when you're in fundraising, you're dealing with immense power and wealth. And those with immense power and wealth generally don't like being told what to do or being asked critical questions about. How they got there or what they're going to do with this power and wealth. And that was a very valid question to ask, I think, in our sector. she's someone that is an activist and very vocal about their commitment to Fighting gender-based violence and they've experienced risk because of it. They've had it affect their livelihood in many ways. And this is a constant question that I think everybody wrestles with. And I think there is a real myth that those really vocal about justice and those vocal about equity are somehow fearless and Knowing the people I do who are always on the front lines. That's not how they are. They just don't let it be the driver. My coach and amazing fundraiser her name's Annika Allen and author, she says the opposite of fear is love. And she says. When you're actually operating out of a sense of love, it's not that the fear isn't present. It's just that you listen to it, but you won't let it be the motivator for you. So I think anybody that's afraid. Of the risk of the livelihood. That's something that everybody shares. It's just there's people that understand or are committed to serving the community and not letting that fear take hold. And those are the people I try and follow. And they've actually modeled the courage for me to speak out about these things. So that's another thing I'd say. The people that are scared, but still speak out. They're always grounded in the community that shows them that and models that and exemplifies that and sits with them in that fear, but also prompts them to act with courage. Wow. I just, wow. I'm really blown away by that and it pulls onto a lot of points too, like you said. when people are standing up, there's that assumption they're fearless, but they are probably scared shitless to absolutely to stand up to that institution or that person because it's such a powerful move to be able to speak up. And that is, one of the pieces I've talked to you about as well is like inspired me to start this podcast is women's rights are under attack. We need to speak up. We need to be seen and we need to use our voices because it's scary what's going on out there and the silencing of them. So that's really put a lot of interesting things in perspective. And on that point of you are a vocal advocate for justice in the nonprofit sector. Was there a defining moment in your own career? That solidified your passion for this work? Well, there's a couple points here. Yes, I can come up with one moment. but before that, another reflection I've had, and I'm sure you feel this too, is When we were talking about fear and how this operates and how we let this, make our decisions and how we behave, I actually was reflecting a lot about. There's an assumption that there's no risk in this work. As if, like, okay, you want to speak up against institutions. You want to challenge power. You want to challenge... The inequitable accumulation of wealth. Why would you assume there's no risk to it? risk is the cost of entry for any sort of justice, but we sort of have this right to comfort, which is actually a characteristic of white supremacy. Recommend everybody to go look. I believe it's called the poisons of white supremacy. One of them is the right to comfort and that's something that we need to challenge if you're in the of justice all the time.

00:09:23 Unknown: I had a story like many women of color in this sector where I had a really toxic leader, It was hard because the organization I had joined was a vocally feminist, intersectional feminist, anti-racist, anti-oppressive women's shelter and I think the experience of. One, being the fundraiser that's communicating to the community exactly how values aligned we are. at the same time enduring such racism on an individual and systemic level. It was a really hard moment for me because it made me really see the sector for what it was, and the worst of it in a lot of ways, which is that we are really good at performing these values. And not necessarily acting with them. and that was a hard reconciliation to make. And I won't lie. I still have some level of grief about it. And that's something I think about a lot for people in this sector is. That whoever you thought you were going to be when you joined this sector before you were harmed or before you saw witness this, it inevitably changes us. But for me, when I endured that. I actually was coached by Annika Allen and this is one of the reasons she'll always have a place in my life. she actually helped me gain the courage to speak my truth about this experience and call it for what it was and call it as racism. And write about it. She said your voice is testimony. and if no matter what happens, you need to be able to share your story and make sure you exercise your power and autonomy to share that story. And for me, that really unlocked something in me. Once I spoke my truth, of course, there was risk to it. Very scary moment in my life, but I think on the other side of that, once I did it, I actually modeled that for myself. And I think for the next generation of women of color too, I want my legacy to be also that I spoke and acted with courage and I want it to be a model for everybody else. And just like Anika has been for me. Thank you so much for sharing that and I am also so sorry you went through that and being vulnerable, on a platform like this number one, but also. When it's so linked to your career and, your finances and being able to speak up to that again is that element of fearlessness and what was that reflection like of. Calling it out, like you said, you were experiencing racism, you're experiencing a toxic work environment. Was it a realization or click in your brain that I'm not going to stand for this anymore like enough is enough like what was there a moment that. You thought, okay, I'm gonna put a word to this and fight against this. It was really done under the mentorship of Anika. I didn't want to do it. I want to be very transparent about this as vocal. as I am about justice. The thought of writing this testimony of mine was one of the most terrifying moments I had because The risk I'm bringing, not just to myself, but potentially my family in terms of if this affects my livelihood, how does this apply to them? It was so many thoughts going in my mind, but actually the moment of starting to write I was reflecting on it and processing it in a narrative way that actually really helped me hone in on just How textbook this behavior was. That was a really unfortunate thing too. I came into this sector with the support and mentorship of a lot of women of color. And I think actually myself writing this, even though the events are different and the chronology of it might be different, it was so similar to what I know women of color face in every industry and sector. And I think that actually that anger that came up for me Help me clarify my feelings about this, which is that this is not just about an unjust done to me as an individual. This is about a system that's taking place in it. I don't want to be one of the many that just leave, find another job, maybe get harmed again. I want to leave some sort of evidence that this happened and that it affected me and that they should take accountability for it. And even if they don't, at least I did everything within my power to start that. I really knew that at the moment that I finished writing it that I had done everything I could and that was liberating because I didn't swallow that pain or that rage on my own. And let it metastasize. I spoke about it. I wrote about it. I was clear with the evidence. I was clear about my feelings in it. And that really liberated me to see The risk I carried paying off even within myself. I didn't need anything else to happen after that. And that was powerful. I resonate with that a lot. Um, I've personally experienced sexual harassment in the workplace, raised it. and it becomes this weird clinical thing of accusations and It's no longer about the victim and your experience. It's just how can we protect this institution and you also have to be willing to go through the hurdles of reporting these things and being in that institution and it just Horrible. It is absolutely horrible no matter what the situation, whether it's racism or sexual harassment, regular harassment and Experiencing a toxic workplace it's frustrating to see when these people have that power but the piece you said and that's something I'm processing now is the autonomy yourself of. Liberating and speaking up and Realistically, we're not going to get justice, unfortunately, and that's how these institutions are set up. but. If there's any piece of closure, it's that you stood up, you stood for your values, and you spoke up about it and hopefully it rings enough bells that someone else is going to pick up on this. So. Yeah, first of all, Julia, I'm sorry that happened to you and it's deeply unjust and it's deeply enraging because we all have a right to be at work and not be harmed. That's it. and the fact that it happens on the regular in all its forms is unjust and it's deeply unfair. And like I said, there's probably a grief to that as well of like. what would it be like to not live in a world where this was such a regular occurrence? what you said about the autonomy piece, because we likely won't get justice. I always think about. It won't happen in our lifetime and I'm so aware of this, but. I know that's not really the outcome we're looking for. It's at least like in my lifetime, at least I did this, you know, like in my lifetime, at least I did everything I could. And that's how I look at it. in every context, I just make sure I have no regrets. and that doesn't mean mistakes. I just mean regrets. My mom always says I have a lot of failures, but I have no regrets. And that's kind of just how I operate where I want to make sure I said everything I could or wanted to say in that moment. I won't regret it, and I don't regret it. All the pain that I went through, I know that every time I was making a decision, I was thinking about myself, but I was also thinking about what does it mean as a woman of color to Stay silent about this or what does it mean as a woman of color to accept this or just say, you know, I'm good with my piece and I'll move on and that didn't sit right with me and I didn't and I'm. Still processing it, but processing it with the resignation and assurance that I did everything I could. Absolutely, and I've broken down a lot of those pieces with my trauma therapist these misogynistic things are hidden in Different pieces of institutions or different microaggressions is like a huge one having to explain to people and I think that was a bit of a wake of call when I was experiencing that is like. it was hard for me to put a word to it because I was like it's not that bad, it was delegitimizing my feelings and seeing you know people have it worse, but putting it back into your context of I don't feel right and I need to speak up about this and. like I said, a transitional piece in my life to understand, um, like you said, don't have regrets. If I'm not feeling good, I'm not going to just go out silent. I'm going to speak up about these pieces. Um, it's shitty that we both experience this but it's also reassuring to me that we have people like yourself who are speaking up about these issues and again we're making that progress by speaking up.

00:17:36 Unknown: you wrote a very thought provoking piece that really stood out to me titled, you are not feeling imposter syndrome. And in it, you say, quote, I am an imposter. I don't belong in the nonprofit sector as it is. I refuse to subscribe to the underpinning values of white saverism, colonialism, donor worship, poverty tourism, and the overall self-congratulatory error. That we came into this sector, to do good, end quote. What led you to this realization and what inspired you to write and share your thoughts publicly about the non-for-profit sector in this lens? So The experience that I had that I just referenced, it really changed how I viewed the sector. I think there was a lot of grief in this piece about processing it. Like I said, When I was reflecting on it, I reflected on the journey of going there and I was so excited to be with a vocally feminist organization and be in a sector that does good and attracts change makers. People that are committed to justice and I think that experience of such toxicity and racism and knowing that this is happens on a daily for women of color especially. It just made me think about the system as a whole, and I think for me, Watching that TikTok by Sean McLaurin, it was so interesting because I really did feel a sense of liberation when he says, I am an imposter. I don't belong to the system because I had been so nervous about finding my place and being accepted in this sector. That I didn't really think about what system I was trying to belong in, until I kind of went through that experience and went, oh, this isn't the system or sector that I want to be in. I want to be in the one that challenges itself and I want to be the one that has a critical lens about the way we do things. And that's been really freeing. And those moments where I do doubt my place in it all or I do doubt whether the work I do is doing any good or if I'm perpetuating the non-profit industrial complex. I have that tension within me always but I don't think about it in an individual lens anymore I think about it in a systemic lens and that helps me kind of get to the core of why I'm feeling this angst or why I'm feeling this tension or what I want to investigate. Interesting points there and when you say that's self-congratulatory mindset of we came into the sector for good. And I know we spoke about at the beginning here, the different advocacy pieces, justice and equity, but yeah, I think more broadly as well, like what, what does doing good really mean? So that moment, especially in that essay, this idea of doing good, the nonprofit sector is really interesting because it has this halo effect. if I'm on an airplane and someone asks what do I do and I say I raise money for nonprofits, it's immediately, oh, wow, such good, such important work. No, like no questions about why I'm raising money, who I'm raising money for, how I do it. It's just an immediate like halo effect and it's really interesting to be in this sector because That halo effect is something that I think a lot of people join this sector for. They like the idea of doing this work to be a good person and I think that's not enough. There's a lot of harmful people in this sector as well. But I think that self-congratulatory error that I'm talking about is there's, for me, one of the biggest issues in nonprofit sector and fundraising specifically is this lack of critical distance or lens about the work we do because it It all goes to a good cause. So, you know, if you lack the critical lens To understand why you're doing it or if it's actually the best thing for your mission or the best thing for your community. That's when the problems are occurring. and I think that halo effect is actually one of the biggest barriers to us having some sort of critical reflection about our practices or the reasons why we do things. Hmm, that's really interesting. I never thought of it in that perspective, but I totally agree. You fall into that assumption of you're here non-for-profit. You're doing something so amazing. Change the world and you know, like you said to like there's toxic people that can be drawn to this because they want that that elevation or that gratitude. So it's really interesting to break those down

00:22:15 Julia Pennella: And that's a wrap on part one of my two-part series with the incredible Esther Saehyun Lee, founder of Elevate Philanthropy Consulting. In part two, we're diving in even deeper. Exploring what it really takes to start your own business, what it means to be a true destructor in your industry, how to navigate the twists and turns of today's political climate, and the incredible power of community in supporting and sustaining your work. Trust me, you won't want to miss it. And fair warning, you might want to have some tissues handy. It's an emotional episode. Thanks so much for tuning in to Hashtag Fempire. I'm your host, Julia Pennella and I'll see you next week.