Ep 9: People Behind the Policy - Conversations on Politics, Community, and Parenthood

Ellen Kushnick pulls back the curtain on Canadian politics with rare candor, sharing insights from her years as a strategic powerhouse on Parliament Hill. From the adrenaline rush of managing swing riding campaigns to the delicate art of crafting policy that truly serves communities, her stories reveal how meaningful political change actually happens.

The conversation takes us through Ellen's most powerful career moments, including her work developing mental health strategies for first responders and advocating for First Nations communities. Human connections, Ellen argues, are what ultimately create effective policy.

As both a mother and political staffer, Ellen navigated the demanding 24/7 world of politics while raising young children. She describes the pivotal moment when her daughter's teacher didn't recognize her at school pickup, prompting her to reevaluate her priorities and seek a career that offered a better work life balance. This balance became central to her work with Moms at Work, where she now advocates and has conversations with others about creating workplaces that support women's career advancements while acknowledging family responsibilities.

Ellen offers a nuanced perspective on how technology and social media have transformed Canadian politics—democratizing voices while simultaneously creating echo chambers that prevent meaningful dialogue. For those considering careers in politics or policy, her advice is refreshingly direct: jump in and learn by doing, as the hands-on experience reveals strengths you might not even know you have.

Ready to hear more perspectives from women navigating the world of politics and policy? Subscribe to #Fempire for conversations that go beyond the headlines to reveal the human stories behind political change.

Transcript

Ellen - People Behind the Policy - Conversations on Politics, Community, and Parenthood

00:00:00 Unknown: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Hashtag Femfire. Today's guest is the kind of person who can organize an international gala and navigate the chaos of a political campaign, sometimes in the same week. Meet Ellen Kushnik, recovering political staffer, strategic powerhouse, and an all-round people person. She spent years behind the scenes at Queen's Park and on Parliament Hill, working for Ministers of Labor, Public Safety, and Indigenous Services. Not to mention being a trusted advisor to MP Pam Danoff. From bipartisan consultations to mentoring the next generation of government leaders, Ellen is all about turning big ideas into meaningful, community-driven impact. But don't let the policy talk fool you. She's also a proud mom of two, a photographer in her spare time, and someone who truly believes connection and empathy should lead every conversation. Whether she's winning local elections or capturing the perfect candid shot of her dog, or maybe her cat, it's kind of a toss-up. Ellen brings a deep human, purpose-driven energy to everything she does. So, let's get into it. Welcome Ellen Kushnick to Hashtag Fempire.

00:01:20 Unknown: Welcome back to another podcast episode. I have the brilliant Ellen Krishnik today joining us from Ottawa and we're going to be talking about her experience in the Political scene as well as the public service and we're going to be covering the election that just wrapped. So Ellen, thanks so much for joining us today. Perfect. Thanks so much for having me, Julia. It's great to be here. Yes, I'm really excited. And we were just joking before we came on how... Working in political world is very different. It's almost like a massive high school where you know a lot of people. We've been on a lot of email chains together. We've been on the dreaded 730, issues call. But this is the first kind of really candid conversation we're going to be having. It's true. So many times people say, hey, do you know so-and-so? And I'm like, I remember their email address. But you might not necessarily have the person in mind. Yeah. So it's really great to be together and get a chance to work together through this. Yes, absolutely. And get to dive into all the political fun stuff we've been seeing across the landscape these last few months. As I mentioned, Canada just came through a historic election. There was so much momentum, so many big shifts. When the results came in, what was going through your mind? So first of all, I was just so proud of the friends and colleagues that I have that are still working with the Liberal Party. I know it had been a tough, two years. The last two years in particular were real slogs. Everyone was rooting us down. Nobody liked us. And they stuck with it and they were able to do this huge comeback, which was quite incredible. Well, it was also really neat for me. It was the first time I just stayed in Ottawa for a campaign. I had generally managed campaigns in swing ridings. And so I think my perspective changed a little bit when I didn't get to see that to and fro from the conservatives. Well, there was quite a lot of. Fairly safe red seats here. So I was anticipating a really good night. But as the results came in, I think it was interesting to me to see actually how well the conservatives really did. They made quite a few things as well. So that was really what was going through my mind as the results were coming out. Yeah, and so you mentioned you managed some campaigns that were in swing ridings. Can you share with our listeners what it is like to run a campaign and where that pressure kind of comes from when so much is on the line that it could flip? Absolutely, yes. Oakville, North Burlington was a really fun one in 2015. It was a brand new riding, so we had no money and no volunteers. We quickly got a really wonderful candidate in Pam DeMoffe. And between the two of us, we were able to establish this wonderful team of volunteers, build up a new riding association. Fundraise all the money that we needed for that campaign in the thirty-eight days or whatever the period was. We had this campaign office. It was this shell of a condo building. And on E-Day, we were sitting in the shell of a building around this area. Dinner table that we were using as furniture. And all our volunteers were calling in with their polling results. And it was just so close. You know, one volunteer would come in and we'd be up by five and then we'd be down by three and we'd be up by seven. And it was just that kind of night. And then eventually we just started to get more and more up. And you could just see the mood really switched in that campaign office. It was an incredible feeling to win that riding, especially after we really started from nothing. Yeah, definitely a nail biter then. It was the kind of Trudeau era, the beginning of it, which ended up being a decade long thing. And the excitement, I think, around the political scene at that time. I remember I was on university campus and you could feel it. I wasn't very politically engaged back then. You really felt the energy. So it was really cool that you got to be part of, like, That moment in history. and Pam did a great job representing the Reining. She held that seat for a while and decided not to seek re-election this year. I think she started a little wave there because that was the bottom half. Of, that section of Halton to turn that from red to blue and then the next campaign we got Adam Vancouver and, it's just grown and grown and grown. That's the area I'm always used to being a part of where it's very close. And you really get the temperature of what Canadians are thinking and who they want to be in government in that part of the country. Absolutely. Really good points. And yeah, Adam Vancouverton's win was also pretty historic. He unseated Lisa Raitt from the Conservatives, which was really contentious. So really great to see. But as we're talking about the campaign, I want to... Get your perspective. You've been in politics for a while. Thinking back on the campaign trail with the most recent election, how do you feel each of the major parties showed up? Were there any strategies that really stood out to you for better or worse? Yeah, well, like I said at the beginning, the liberals were pretty beaten up and I think their strategy to really lean on Trump as a common enemy for Canadians to kind of unite behind really was the story of the campaign. It brought the progressive votes to us, and I think that's likely why you saw some of the smaller parties in the NDP, et cetera, lose their votes and gain it to us because of that common thought of we really need to have a strong voice. To combat Trump. And it wasn't Pierre Polyev. You know, I think there was an easy link to him and how similar they were. And Canadians were a little bit nervous about that. Yeah, absolutely. Carney was a political rookie and he really showed, himself out to Canadians. I think both with his economic record, But historically unseating two party candidates. Like, still so wild considering where the Liberals were in the polls just a few months ago. As we're talking about that, I'm curious... Were you also expecting the NDP to lose official party status? Like, was that on your bingo card for 2025? No, I don't think it was. You know, it was becoming apparent that Singh was very likely to lose out in BC, but I don't think I thought they would lose as much. I was even nervous. I'm in And the Ottawa rioting where it's NDP versus Liberal. And we have a very strong candidate in Joel Harden. He shows up for his community. He's a strong advocate for housing. And I thought he really would have a better result than what he did against Gastronac B. So I was surprised. And I think it's interesting in that. The NDP really did do politics differently. They didn't just stand up in the House of the Commons and critique everything the Liberals were doing. They sat down with the Liberals and pushed forward some pretty influential policies like pharmacare and dental care. And I don't know if that's a disconnect in Canadians knowing how our system works or trying to punish the NDP or maybe had nothing to do with the NDP that what the results ended up being. But, the NDP should be proud of the work that they did from the last round. Yeah, absolutely. And I take your points on that. There is a disconnect. You and I have both knocked on thousands of doors. There's a disconnect, I think, when it comes to the public on where jurisdiction works. I think unfortunately as well, and I don't know to what their detriment, but Singh near right to the end was saying never trust a liberal. And then I think that signals this weird thing to voters of, well, you trusted them to go in an agreement with them. You know, I get his argument as well. Well, we wanted to get things done and hold them accountable. But it was an interesting tone, I think, both with the leader as well as what the party ideas they were putting forward. It seemed a bit dated and not meeting the moment of where we were now. Canadian politics, but hindsight's 2020. Politics aside, I want to go back to the beginning of your career. And what first drew you into politics? Was there a moment or issue that really lit that spark for you? the first... Foray I had into politics was after I got my university degree from McMaster. I hadn't picked a party at that particular moment. I thought that would be good for my studies was to remain nonpartisan. I kind of didn't have a pathway after getting that degree of what I would do for a career. So a longtime friend had been volunteering for Gary Zemlak. And suggested I come out and see what it was all about. He was a liberal running for Dalton McGinty's party way back in the day. That election result was another one that went to the wee more hours of the morning. And I think it ended up being about 107 votes that he lost by. And that was really what got me interested in it. it really showed me that the grassroots campaigns really mattered. I love knocking on doors. I love chatting with people and hearing what their perspectives were. And I got hooked. About a year later, I worked for Kevin Flynn. In his office, I really started to do some work around mental health. And I think that was a theme throughout my political career is advocating for various different populations and working to get policies to work towards the betterment of their well-being. So... Yeah, that was kind of what got me hooked. I've got my start. Politics is definitely, I think, very addictive in that sense of whether you like the fast pace, whether you like the issues and the nitty gritty of the policy, I think it has a little bit of everything for everybody depending on what your skill set is, right? and even just how ministerial offices are divided, it's very unique and shows to the skills of people. So I, want to dive into that. You've held various, files. During your time working on the Hill and you worked on some really complex files from public safety to Crown Indigenous Relations, which you're now working in the public service for, but... What are some of the policy changes or initiatives you're most proud of during your time on the Hill and what did those moments teach you? Yeah, for sure. So again, I'll link it back to mental health in 2016 when we first started working with the public safety minister Goodell at the time. He had in his mandate letter that he was supposed to put together a strategy for first responders to help them manage their post-traumatic stress injuries. And he really didn't know too much about the file. So we passed it off to Pam DeBoff and Rob Oliphant at the Public Safety Committee. And with them, we got to do this great study and talk to a lot of first responder people. Community members and find out exactly what was happening to their members and what they would need in terms of help. And a lot of them were saying, hey, we would like treatment for people that are going through these really horrific situations. And so we developed a strategy that did look at the issue more, studied it to really understand why first responders were having a bigger prevalence of mental health issues than the rest of the population. And it also worked to getting a treatment for them to access. And when I had left public safety, it was an online treatment that the center that had established it was working with all the provinces and territories to get their first responders to link to it. So just knowing that real tangible results can help individuals really is what I think is what I got into politics for is having that impact and knowing where that impact is. It's just so cool to be a part of. Yeah, well said. Especially, I think that's one of the most unique things being a political staffer and working behind the scenes is you get to make these big national policies. They're not... Small, like they can start off as grassroots, whether it's stakeholders raising them to you, but being able to actually then see it implemented and seeing the effects it has, and that's just one small step of the Broader mental health conversation I think Canada's having and I'm really hopeful that Kearney will keep that momentum and we'll see even more. Whether it's financial supports or actual initiatives from the government around mental health. So really great to hear that you have that on your resume and can speak to the work you did on that very important file. But On the other spectrum of things, politics isn't always smooth sailing. what are some of the most challenging moments you faced while working in government and how did you and your team get through them? Yeah, so I'd love to share a story when I worked with Indigenous Services Canada, because there was a lot of really neat work happening, in that department as well. And as many Canadians will know, we're still... helping First Nations communities, lift a lot of their water advisories. And one in particular was, for a First Nation out in, London. And we were very close to having an agreement with them to start to work on some infrastructure so that they could have piped water in from Lake Huron to their homes. But we were having a bit of a disagreement on how big that pipe would be. And we weren't quite sure why they were so adamant about having a larger pipe. So what I got to do in my role was bring the parliamentary secretary out to that community. As opposed to all those potential miscommunication through emails or through talking through maybe public servants, we were able to go right to that community, have them tour the parliamentary secretary around. And sit them down and say, hey, the chief of that First Nation said, I used to be the fire chief. And when I was the fire chief, I lost a whole house and a whole family because I couldn't get water fast enough through my trucks. So this pipe isn't just about bringing clean water to my community. It's also about bringing the ability to fight fires. And that story, understanding that, feeling that human connection was just so powerful and having those moments. Be like, oh, okay, you know, this really makes sense. Let's go back to the department. Let's really push them to get this pipe to be bigger so that it can call in to solve two problems for the community. And just being able to do that work and bringing those grassroots voices back to the hill, those are some of the moments I'm most proud of for sure. Yeah, that's a great story and a really big theme, I think, in all of my conversations. There's that disconnect always with policy, unfortunately, that there's not an understanding of the reality or there's that miscommunication through the public service when it gets to the politicians. And I always joke, I have a master's in public policy, so I'm trained like a bureaucrat, but I work and think like a politician. And I think that that idea of thinking like a politician and even yourself taking that initiative to bring. Your parliamentary secretary to that community is huge because without that, you wouldn't, like you said, have understood, yes, clean water is the priority, but we also need to fight fires. but without having those firsthand conversations, the policy wouldn't have been made otherwise. So I'm really glad to hear you brought that strategic thinking to that policy file.

00:15:42 Unknown: Politics and the dynamics of it, it is a very demanding job and field on its own. As staffers, we have to be plugged in 24-7 because your minister needs to respond whether it's the next morning. They're walking to QP. A journalist is, you know, throwing a mic in front of their face. It's really hard to manage that. But I want to say this, you did that while being a parent. And being a parent adds a whole other layer. I can't imagine I'm not a parent. But what was it like balancing motherhood with the pace and pressure of political life? Yeah, I started in politics in 2015. I came and moved to Ottawa. I had my first child while I was here. I was just at that age where it was time for me to start my family. And I didn't start working in minister's offices until I had that one-year-old. And what was really important for me was Marcy Sirks. She was a mom herself. And so she had a culture in her office where it was family friendly, where we were able to communicate and just make sure, hey, you know, we got a team of twenty Not all of us need to be on 24-7. So we divvited out that way. I had the early morning. I was that 730, made sure I had all of my information and was able to brief up the prime minister's office first thing in the morning. But then I got to go later that afternoon and spend some time with my one-year-old at the time. So I think having those people that have the foresight to change the culture and build those teams where it's family friendly really is what's going to continue to make it supportive for parents to continue to do that work. And I think it's important to have that perspective in politics because they kind of have a different sense of like what's happening. Oh my goodness, you know, a bunch of parents are concerned about how much camp is this summer. You get a better pulse when you can have various perspectives. As a manager, I was always sure to ask in my interview process about, hobbies and about what, people did outside of work. And this question did a few things for me. First of all, it let the person kind of relax because it put them in a place where they knew what they were talking about, something that brought them joy. So it kind of gives you a real glimmer of who that person was. And it also kind of showed them that in my team, I value those things. I think that makes you a well-rounded person. I think that's good for your well-being and it's important to have not just work all the time to have those outside perspectives. And I do think that changing that culture is good for the party. Like I said, it just gives you different perspectives, gives you different access to information and different experiences. And then you can have better policy that can connect to what's happening on the ground. So yeah, I know there's a lot of parents still in politics and I root them on. I think it's important and I hope we continue to push for it to be family friendly. Yeah, well said. And what also comes to mind is Karina Gould was, I think, one of the first MPs to be pregnant in the House of Commons. So I have a lot of respect for her. What was it like for you as a mom to actually see someone who was pregnant Actively in the House of Commons doing politics because I don't think it's a common sight that we see. No, it's so important. And that part when she first became a minister and then when she ran for leadership just a few months ago, I think that was just so... It's important to have that to see, hey, you know, you can do it too. I think a lot of times there's an assumption that women will choose to... Spend more time with their kids and that personally is has been my choice. I'm deciding to back away a little bit from my career and spend more of my time on my kids school and parent council and that sort of thing. But there is also the choice to keep pursuing your ambitions and your career. And I think as women we have to be supportive of both options and root both of these individuals on. We can keep doing whatever and I think that's just so important to have both of those stories out there. Yeah, well said. And I think that's a segue into my next question of you did leave Parliament Hill back in September of 2023. Can you tell us a little bit about what led to that decision and what transition was like for you? Yeah, so I think I showed up to pick up my daughter from school and it was fairly late in the school year and the teacher didn't know who I was. I had to show my ID and do that. And it just really kind of had me reflect on, again, where was I spending my energy? And I just wasn't being a big enough a part of her world. And I knew that it was time for me to look at changing careers and finding a different balance. because I, felt that was what was important, to me. and also we were going through introduction of, safe water legislation for First Nations, that was a really important file and we really were hoping to get that introduced and it wasn't quite ready yet. And I knew me as a professional, I just couldn't see the pathway of getting it passed. And I knew that my minister needed a director of parliamentary affairs that had new energy and a new idea of what they could bring to push that policy through. And I'm so proud of Hannah. She came in and she pushed That legislation really hard. She got it through the committee stage in the House of Commons just before the last election. And then it's in the platform. So it's something you can push policy so far. And I think sometimes you have to know that they take a long time and sometimes new energy is the best thing for it. So. That's, that was my exit and it was a really good exit. I'm glad to hear, and as you're navigating the public service space now, I'm just curious, like, what is it like compared to working in politics to public service? I'd be interested, I have ideas that it's much slower pace, but I'm curious from You doing that basically direct jump. Yeah, as you know, Julia, in politics you're one minute planning a tour or perhaps you're trying to talk to committee and you're negotiating so that you can get a motion through for a study or something. You're prepping your question period lines. You're kind of bumping all over the place and you're always trying new things, which is wonderful. and the public service is just very much more focused. We are cabin affairs and we have to get a certain... Emcees ready and briefing documents ready and that is it. So it's nice in that it gives you that focused perspective. Bureaucracy is, they get the details, they take the time, they think things through, and I think that aspect of our system is so vital and it's been really neat to see that part of our system. Is it exactly the pace I want? You know, I probably could pick up the pace a little bit, but I think every opportunity provides learning and I'm so grateful for it.

00:22:17 Unknown: We're on the theme of moms. You're part of Moms at Work. It's a growing and powerful community that advocates for better supports for moms through EI, $10 day childcare, as well as just a Really great platform for networking and to have access to different women in different spaces if you're looking to jump in your career. So what made you want to join Moms at Work and why do you think spaces like that are so important for working moms? Yeah, so I've been working in politics for sixteen years, and I didn't know how the world worked outside of it, to be quite honest, and I started working... With Al, I think in 2021 as a career coach and she gave me some really good advice on how to start to pivot and transition out of politics. And then, she started this, collective, which is just a group of, I think, over 300 working moms from so many different industries and so many different backgrounds. And, we get to chat with each other and find out what, It's happening in marketing. What's happening in tech? And it's just such a great network of women to build each other up. And we're also being led to become advocates. We've talked about doing leadership differently, having the workplace be different, more understanding to family life or to more balanced in terms of You know, a four-day work week is something that Al often talks about. And so I think she's just such an advocate about thinking about those sorts of things to help us have more balance in our lives and help work be part of it. But think about those other aspects of it as well. Yeah, well said and one of the really powerful things I think Allison brings to moms at work is she empowers women To shake off these preconditioned notions that we have about ourselves, that we have about the workplace. So she runs like salary negotiation. Resume writing, career coaching, as you mentioned. So I think there's a lot of elements that as women are not talked about. We don't talk about money. There's still to this day I've experienced in different roles. There's this Idea that other women are threats or you're in competition and I think breaking down those, barriers as women and realizing we're a team, we're a community, like, Don't feed into this patriarchal system that's meant to suppress us. Absolutely. A strong tide lifts all boats, right? So, yeah. I like that. I haven't heard that one before. So, yeah, I think it's really important to have these spaces where we can, whether it's learn about these things, but also vent about the crappy things that happen in the workplace and I think having that support network to be able to, one, help you navigate them. Like, is this a bring this to HR? Is this something that needs to be escalated? Or is this like a Realization of maybe this workplace is toxic and you need to leave and having that supportive voice because I think there's so much noise in the world, especially as moms, you're not just supporting yourself, you're supporting your kids. There's mortgages involved, there's daycare, there's, pickup from soccer practice, whatnot. So I think it's great that this network exists and there's that support system. And that's where you and I have actually reconnected because Allison's my mentor. And I've been seeing just from the outside, again, not as a mom. But seeing the work and the camaraderie in it is so amazing and I think reassuring as someone who might get to there one day or progress in their career. Absolutely, and I think your labor experience would show too that women of that age and just starting to build their families is one of the biggest population that's underemployed. And so I think the impact of that on our economy is huge, right? So I think we have to have this voice out there. We have to keep pushing. And I think it'll be good for all Canadians. Absolutely, and just on that point, talking about women in the workforce, another big thing which I don't think a lot of people realize, and I had an idea of it, but it wasn't until I worked in the seniors file as well where I really... Eye-opening to see the realities of it. we were discussing policies about increasing old age security and I remember this statistic came up and I had to kind of explain to my male colleagues how Widowed women in their older age typically live in higher levels of poverty. And for me, it was kind of a no-brainer. It was like, oh, yeah, like, You know, historically women get paid less on the dollar than men, number one. Number two, when we're looking at the boomer demographic, it was likely that those women weren't in the workforce. So their only supply of income was their husband. So when they pass away, they only have a fraction of that. Where was pension? So there's a lot of different elements that I think people don't look at or realize of the impact, not just now for women, but for the future of their livelihood, their ability to sustain themselves and have that dignity piece as they age. So Really important to have women's voices, not just in politics, but in the policymaking process to your earlier point to bring those perspectives, right? Yep, absolutely. Yep. And as we're talking about different demographics, for young professionals looking to get into politics or policy issues, What advice would you share? Are there any must-knows you wish someone had told you and grabbed you by the hand when you started in politics long ago? I would just say jump in, whether it's a political party that you really align with and you want to volunteer for or a summer internship. Give it a try. You're likely not going to get a lot of training. It's going to just be a lot of learning on the job, but you will get so many skills, whether that's media relations or communications or policy development. It's a great experience to have, and I think you'll learn a lot about yourself. Maybe you think, hey, I want to make policy, but you actually really love getting ready for a media interview and doing scrums. You just don't know, right? Jump in, do that internship, do those positions, and get a better sense of what it's all about, and you'll learn so much about yourself, you'll learn so much about the country, and you'll get some great skills while you're doing it. Well said, and I totally resonate with that. I remember I never thought I would get into parlor fairs and issues management and then now it's like all I live and breathe. I originally had applied for policy positions because I had a master's in it fresh out of school. But yeah, it shows you something. I think working in politics is a university degree in its own. You just learn so much. You're exposed to so much. So really good stuff. And On that note, as we're talking about careers, every career has its did-that-just-happen kind of moment. What's one of the moments that happened to you in your career or in politics, and what do you take away from that experience? Yeah, I think I'm actually going to go maybe for the most shocking moment in my career was when I was on a call with Bill Blair. He was the public safety minister. And he was talking to the premier of BC and was forecasted to be a really bad wildfire season. And so we were just checking in, making sure they had all the resources that they needed and if they needed anything from the feds. And they felt good. And they said, yeah, we know it's going to be really bad wildfire season, but we're feeling okay. And absolutely, we'll call you first thing if we need anything. And I think that was on June 30th. And the next morning, all of Lytton had burnt down. And, you know, despite the best intentions, the best planning, things can sometimes happen so fast. So I think that really, you have to have those moments of gratitude. Because you just really never know. And I think that was just so telling for me that these great, powerful people really at the end of the day, sometimes things just happen. Yeah, I think that's going back to the issues management piece and crisis management. Like, it's so unpredictable, especially when you're at those national high stakes.

00:30:12 Unknown: From where you sit now, how has the political landscape in Canada changed over the past few years in your opinion? what's shifted for better or worse or what's gotten more complicated? Yeah, so I think, you know, technology and social media have changed so much in the ten years since I came to Ottawa. You know, I used to use a BlackBerrys. It's a double-edged sword. It really helps us democratize so many different parts of our country. For instance, I get to be here today telling you my story and I was Kind of a middle manager in a political system that wouldn't have necessarily had a voice before. So I think it's really cool because it brings different perspectives to the forefront. But it also at times can cause a vacuum, right? So if you're on social media and you're supportive of a certain perspective, you're likely going to hear that perspective over and over and over again. And I think sometimes that Prevents us from maybe checking our beliefs and maybe thinking of the impacts that situations might have on people. That aren't maybe being heard in your vacuum. So I think that's something that we might want to think about. For instance, a lot of the conversations with the states, you know, people continue to have to cross that border every day. There's families and communities that Are dependent on the border and we're not giving maybe the nuances of that situation a lot of thought. So I think that can be the detrimental part to social media. And also, it can be a place where I think you don't see the humanity. When you're knocking on doors and you're talking to people, you see them as your neighbors, you see them as humans. But when you just see them as social media, there seems to be this ability to attack people. And particularly for women, this can be quite a scary, a scary situation. So my own mentor decided that she had to leave politics because of this pandemic. So I think that can be a negative aspect of social media and technology. Yeah, really good points. There's definitely, I think, that disconnect between the reality of things and, like you said, they're our neighbors. We've grown and lived in community and there's been that disconnect. I think there's Like you said, the element of social media, there's the pandemic coming off of and people's anxiety. You and I have talked about that. There's a lot of pressures, I think, even on young people today to not know anything outside of just social media and being able to communicate and communicate. I want to go as we're kind of just wrapping up here. If you could go back and give your younger self some career advice, what would it be? Is there anything you would have done differently or a mindset you wish you would have had right from the get go? Yeah, absolutely. I think the mindset would have been more to be a bit more patient with myself to keep showing up as my authentic self. Keep being kind. I think that probably makes everything a little bit slower and perhaps you get overseen. but it's who I wanted to be and show up as in the world. So I think it's important to trust in that. Yeah, well said. And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received? And how has it shaped either your career or how you show up in the world today? So this is one I have learned from the instructor at my Pilates class. And during workouts, she says, take what you need and leave the rest. I think when you know yourself, you're able to take pieces of advice and apply them to yourself, take what works for you. And don't bother with the rest. There's been so many times where I've been told, hey, you know what, you're not a person that can really do policy. You're just not a policy wonk. Or you're not great at communications. I don't think you have a career for that. And I've done both of those things on a national setting. So I think everyone's trying to give you... The best advice they can with a little sliver of knowledge of who you are and their own experience. But you really have to know yourself and be able to take what you need from their suggestions and don't worry about the rest. Yeah, well said. We can look at so many celebrities, but we're told, ah, you'll never get to where you are in this field. I've personally been told, you don't have enough comms experience hearing I'm running two podcasts. But I think it's both to your point about Knowing yourself, and I think that's a journey, and it takes that, going back to one of your earlier points, like just jump in, try the things, experiment, have fun with it, because life's way too short to be worrying about What so-and-so said about me because in the grand scheme of life, it's not going to mean anything. So I think that was a really, I like that saying. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Ellen, this was a really insightful conversation. I really appreciate Appreciate you bringing your political perspective, a little bit of career advice for aspiring women coming into this field or just trying to figure it out realistically because I think we're all just always trying to figure it out. So that was Ellen Kushnick, Senior Policy Advisor. Ellen, any other closing thoughts you want to share with our listeners today? No, it's just I'm so glad that you're doing this, Julia, and I appreciate having more women to hear about their journeys and what they're up to because, again, I think the more that we're out there telling our stories. The more we can take those little nuggets and use them in our own careers. So thank you so much for all the work that you're doing on these podcasts. Oh, thank you so much. And I appreciate your time because I can't do these podcasts without people like you coming on and being willing to share their stories. So I really want to thank you for that. So that's a wrap with Ellen Kushnick, Senior Policy Advisor at Crown Indigenous Affairs and Northern Affairs. So please be sure to tune in next week for my next special episode and my next special guest. We'll catch you there.